drew sagan

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Posts by drew sagan

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  41

  WATCHTOWER 15/10/09 RE. D/F'D FRIENDS

  by BluesBrother in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is the 4th study article, to be studied christmas week as it happens.

  title - "maintaining friendships in a loveless world".

  para 2 "today, what a pleasure it is to be associated with a worldwide organization whose members follow the pattern set by first century christians.

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  drew sagan

  fwiw,

  I actually think the most important line is in the paragraph following the one you outlined:

  "We cannot expect to remain a friend of God if we side with those who choose to be friends of the world."

  Here the Watchtower sets up two classes of people, those on the "outside" and those on the "inside". Local Watchtower Elders are given a very broad amount the authority to decide who falls into what class. The rules that govern their behavior are vague, and can lead to some pretty major discrepencies in fairness. Additionally, the official procedures for determining issues such as this include judicial committees, private hearings that are heavily biased. If the same kind of procedures were used in a federal or state court, the Watchtower would cry injustice.
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  41

  A "possible suicide" results in no JW support

  by donny in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  a co-worker of mine whose, wife and daughters are jehovahs witnesses, told me about situation that his oldest daughter finds abhorrent.

  he said that a close friend of his daughter was found dead in a car the other day.

  she was in her early 30's and had been a lifelong jw.

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  drew sagan

  The public needs to hear stories like this so they avoid joining in the first place.

  By leaving the situation to sand as is, higher up Watchtower officials would be allowing for the possiblity that dedicated members of the group could possibly leave (something they usually dont care that much about), as well as create bad publicity for the local group (something they tend to care more about). This is why I think the family has a chance at getting headquarters to overrule the Elders decision. These Elders are not upholding a core policy of the WTS, but instead are using their own valuation of a situation for a particuliarly bad end.

  If the family actually does get the decision overruled there is a good chance the local congregation will treat them poorly. Elders do not like being challenged and show great disrespect for those that make fools out of them.
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  41

  A "possible suicide" results in no JW support

  by donny in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  a co-worker of mine whose, wife and daughters are jehovahs witnesses, told me about situation that his oldest daughter finds abhorrent.

  he said that a close friend of his daughter was found dead in a car the other day.

  she was in her early 30's and had been a lifelong jw.

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  drew sagan

  The family should call Brooklyn, the C.O. and the D.O. Make a real fuss. They have an official statment by a medical professional. Higher ups don't usually overturn local Elders decisions, but it has happened before. This is the best chance they have at getting the service.

  My personal intution tells me that there may possibly be some family rivarly going on, or at least some personal issues that go beyond the particular case in question.
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  59

  The Generation That Will Not Pass Away...

  by undercover in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,534804,00.html?test=latestnews.

  britain's last living world war i veteran dies at 111. .

  how's that watchower prophecy working out?.

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  drew sagan

  Jehovah has given us "new light" on the subject. Don't you get it?

  This only proves how outdated you apostates really are.
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  12

  Why So Much Media Coverage For The DC This Year?

  by Bangalore in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this year there seems to be quite a bit of coverage regarding the disctrict convention.

  newspapers throughout the us and canada have covered it.

  also many tv stations have covered it?

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  drew sagan

  They will typically put out press releases hoping to get some free advertising for their event. This happens every year.
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  8

  CALLING ALL EX BETHELITES &GILIAD MEMBERS :what REALLY goes on

  by freedomisntfree in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  ive been stewing on the idea for a few years that these places who are supposedly so holy must have a dark underbelly.what kind of scandolous things if any did any of you witness or hear about.e.g: amatuer porn in the residences,grow ops in the gardens cross dressing gb members etc.im going to be really disapointed if none of this ever happened.

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  drew sagan

  Maybe those here with some experience can give some insight into this general theory of mine regarding the organization.
  
  In recent years I have come to believe that there are two organizations within the Watchtower. There is the "exterior" organization that consists of people who are living "normal" lives, working jobs, owning homes, and doing other things most people in society do. Then there is the “interior” organization, who live mostly within elaborate Watchtower facilities (exemplified by the isolated leadership).
  
  At other points in time the interior leadership made decisions based upon its own radical beliefs (Franz and 1975, Rutherford and 1925, WWII, Blood, ect). Those days seem to be long gone. In my view, the current interior leadership is mostly concerned with its own survival. Thus, they are more pragmatic, at least when it comes to their own sustainability. The changes (and confusion) in the blood policy seem to illustrate this. In some ways the policy has become more lax, but it still defends the policy vigorously in order to keep itself from being liable for the past.
  
  The Watchtower no longer organizes their work based upon the belief that they actually are living in dangerous times. In some ways they have actually reformed, become tamer in their predictions. The days of protesting churches are gone (something many current JWs would be embarrassed and ashamed to do).
  
  But this does not mean that there is real progress. The interior organization holds all the power, and makes decisions mainly with its own preservation in mind. This comes to the detriment of the exterior organization, which has to survive based on rules and regulations mainly created for the purpose of helping the interior. The interior seems to show little concern for the issues facing those on the outside. This sort of neglect wears hard on Elders and others who rely upon the Watchtower for all of their direction.
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  38

  Breaking News - Russia Close to Banning JWs Entirely YouTube Video

  by cognac in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-qy14yqx-0 - i'm not sure if i attached this right.....

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  drew sagan

  I view this as highly suspect.

  Jehovah's Witnesses have the right to practice their faith (personal association), or at least, should have that right. The question then arises as to particulair forms of behavior that fall inside of that association which are possibly detrimental to society.

  Personally, I belive that if a state wants to interfere with the practices of a faith, it has to deal with official policy and not overall status. Legislation that restricts the types of public punishments members of a group can inflict on children (like disfellowshipping) could be an avenue worth exploring.

  In the end, tracing the negative aspects of psychological behavior is extremely difficult and complex. These kinds of groups have only developed in the past 50-100 years. Many socities have not been able to understand them fast enough. Legislation aimed at restricting their activites is a new frontier that few free governments seem willing to enter. The fact that this is happening in Russia gives no reason for encouragement.

  Current political forces in Russia are against JWs because the group does not encourage people to be model citizens of the state. The iironic thing (as many commentators on JWs write) is that the witnesses always demand freedom for their organizational leadership, yet restrict the freedoms of individual members.
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  64

  Has anyone lost a friend or known of someone who committed suicide over BORG-induced guilt?

  by Alpaca in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am not going to use any names for this because i don't want to cause potential hurt to anyone.. there was a very nice family in my congregation when i was a teenager.

  step-dad, mom, and her 4 kids.

  the dad became an elder, had a great business, the mom spent lots of time with the kids.

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  drew sagan

  I know of one man who had a JW brother that committed suicide.

  His life took a downard turn after seeing a C.O. one day at a mall hanging out with a girl (as if they were in a relationship). He reported to the higher ups and they came down on him hard for "not waiting on Jehovah". For some reason he simply would not keep quite about what he saw. Organization leaders and local Elders made his life a living hell. From what I understand, he was quoted as saying that he felt like Uzza reaching out to steady the ark. He wish he had not started what he did.

  I can't remember the rest of the story, but know that his life started to spiral out of control after this episode. He eventually committed suicide.

  His brother is still very bitter towards the organization. You really can't blame him.
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  208

  Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions regarding "attention seekers"?

  by BonaFide in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we all love it when people pay attention to us or our opinions.

  but what i am talking about is people who crave and force attention from others.

  not just people who talk a lot, but those that force everyone around them to focus on them and them only.. in one of my classes there is a woman who raises her hand to ask a question, but never really has a question to ask.

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  drew sagan

  I really like the term anti-witnesses, it is by far the fairest term you can use to label those who don't agree with the Watchtower
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  164

  Would a definite article prove that Jesus is God?

  by solafide in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  from what i've studied of jw's, john 1:1 is interpreted as "and the logos was (a) god".

  therefore, because there is no definite article in john 1:1 for example, one supposedly cannot confirm that jesus is referred to as "the god".

  so my question for the jw is "what if jesus were reffered to with a definite article in the nt"?

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  drew sagan

  Because the Bible is the combination of various texts by different authors with various audiences, is should be assumed that there is no unified doctrine of Christs divinity or humanity contained within. "Prooftexting" to support the views of one specific theory inadvertenly causes one to reject texts that do not support your argument.It's all subjective.
  
  The orthodox trinity may not "be in the Bible", but neither are most of the ideas floating around in Watchtower land. What really happens is that people juxtipose their own life experiences and perspectives on top of a text.
  
  I've found that it is best to simply throw out the doctrine of sola scriptura. It makes the Bible eaiser to understand, and you end up more content.